Season 2, Ep. 3 | From Michael to RuPaul to The Hollywood Bowl: A Journey of Creative Excellence Transcript
More Elephant Intro
[00:00:38] Jason Rudman: So our guest on the More Elephant Podcast today is Jamal Sims, a self-taught dancer whose resume is ridiculous, right? So, I love it when I meet people that have got a unique talent – Jamal is probably a quadruple threat. I know, at least Jamal, you're a director, a choreographer, a producer, we'll add all around great human being to all of that as well.
So that's four. That's probably a bunch of stuff that I don’t know about. What I'm excited about is the journey we're about to go on, hearing from you about your career, your passion, how you got started, and more importantly, what the art of choreography and dance teaches the world in this moment about diversity, inclusion, belonging…what it can teach the young kids of tomorrow about finding their place and expressing themselves in one of the best ways possible.
So, thrilled you here. We're gonna have some fun.
[00:01:32] Jamal Sims: Thank you for having me.
[00:01:33] Jason Rudman: Hey, glad about it. So it's said you were self-taught, right? And if we were to book-end your journey, it starts with Michael Jackson, and at the moment, the book-end would be things like Encanto at the Hollywood Bowl, Beauty and the Beast, right? A 30th celebration. You've got Emmy Award nominations and you're one of RuPaul's favorite people.
So, we're gonna go all the way back. So, first off, you audition and was a dancer on Remember the Time. We remember, remember the time and we remember Michael Jackson. Tell your audience about that. Like self-taught…Michael Jackson. You turn up and you book a gig.
[00:02:12] Jamal Sims: Yeah. Well, I'll even go a little bit before that just because when I was seven years old, the Wiz came out and that's how far I go back with Michael inspiration.
When I saw him as a scarecrow in The Wiz at the movie theater – because I'm an LA native, we didn't have the Broadway play here – so, I was introduced to the Wiz through the actual film. And I remember seeing Michael up there as a scarecrow and just wanting to be a part of whatever that was.
I didn't know if it was dancing, if it was singing, I just wanted a part, a piece of it.
And so, then just being a huge Jackson Five fan from growing up. And then when he did Thriller, I was in seventh grade. And I did that for the talent show. I did the whole thing! I got all the dancers, all my friends together, we put together, you know, a big talent show number. And so, Michael kind of got me through my junior high school awkward years.
And my high school years, I would do performances and then right after high school, auditioning for my first professional job, and it ended up being a Michael Jackson music video.
So, it was just so crazy how, that was like, he was my inspiration and then that ended up being my first job was Remember the Time.
[00:03:30] Jason Rudman: So, it's interesting. In your history, for those of us that are aware, you've got a TV credit with ‘So You Think You Can Dance’, and I think for me, as a British native that comes to the States, that's my first experience in the most recent past of how you bring self-taught talent together and you just see amazing things.
The reason I bring that up is because you didn't have ‘So You Think You Can Dance’ when you were, so you're self-taught, how does that happen? Is that part of your environment in LA, the people you were surrounded with, like, you know, I mean, you on the street breaking?
[00:04:03] Jamal Sims: Yeah. No, no, no. So funny enough, because I say I'm an LA native, but I'm really from Rancho Cucamonga, which is 45 minutes outside of LA. So, it's not like coming to LA was a big deal for me. Like oh, we're going to LA; that's a thing, you know? So, we didn't have a lot of access to, like, street performers or even like the breaking community. What we had was MTV!
I would turn on MTV in the morning and I would VHS, would record, you know, whether it be Thriller or Beat It or the Pat Benatar video, and I would just learn choreography. I would learn from the TV, I would learn it backwards, because when you're facing the TV, you know, the directions of flip. I would learn the choreography and that was my training every day for hours in front of MTV.
And then I would teach other people; I became a teacher as well as a student really, you know, as early as seventh grade, like I said. So that was my training ground was, yeah, learning off the TV and Soul Train.
Soul Train was a big deal for me. Yeah. You know, even before MTV, there was Soul Train and me and my Mom used to watch it on Saturday mornings. She'd be cleaning up and I'd be in there dancing and doing performances for her. So, I'm just so grateful that we had television back then to be able to see people that inspire me to do what I do now.
[00:05:29] Jason Rudman: It is amazing, right? So, a couple of things for anybody listening, Jamal mentioned the VHS – for certain people, they're going be like, I have no idea what that is. That would be a tape, that would be a tape that you would frontload into what was called a VCR and you would press, play and record at the same time. I do again, look, you and I are a verb.
You and I are the same age. If I think about my experience and my history, the impact that MTV and Soul Train had. Like for me, as a young kid in England, like just getting access to that, it was mind blowing, right? Because that wasn't the British experience around, you know, the time, there would've been the new wave stuff, the punk stuff. Right?
And the infusion of essentially Soul in my experience has, I think just completely rounded out my experience. Soul Train is a thing, right? Like if people don't appreciate Don Cornelius and what he did to put to an essential African-American artist on television, in front of people, and seeing all of that artistic expression, like that's a revolution in and of itself, as well.
[00:06:32] Jamal Sims: It is, it is. And not only the music that we were introduced through Soul Train, but the dancers that would actually be on the show. I paid attention to who was dancing up on the risers and who would come down the line. And those were huge celebrities to me, you know, so they really changed the way America looked at social dancing.
[00:06:55] Jason Rudman: You're talking like Shalamar, right? Like, Jody Wadley got her start…didn't she get her start, Jody Wadley on Soul Train. Hey, a former flame of mine who was at the Dance Theater of Harlem got his start on Soul Train, and I've seen the video of him doing the line. It's amazing the doors that opened. And to your point, you would watch it backwards.. that's crazy. Totally crazy.
[00:07:18] Jamal Sims: Yes. Speaking of Jody, I ended up full circle watching Jody on Soul Train and ended up choreographing for Jody years later when I started choreographing.
So, you know, I kind of almost feel like I have to be careful what I speak out of my mouth because it actually comes true. I'm always really aware of like, the power of my manifestation is really, really strong.
[00:07:43] Jason Rudman: Yeah. Well, let's connect that to moving from self-taught to prolific choreographer. Not everybody that does what you do gets to be Emmy-nominated. So, how do you make the leap then from being a dancer; where was your first choreographic break?
[00:08:02] Jamal Sims: So what happened I was working with my partner at the time, Rosero McCoy. We were dancing at the same time, and we started assisting another choreographer by the name of Frank Gadson, who was doing a lot of artists at the time. And we would assist Frank and actually learned a lot about the industry through Frank.
He was so gracious enough to let us see behind the curtain what we normally as dancers wouldn't see. We got to see the business side of choreography and also the ups and downs, and the ins and outs of dealing with artists and dealing with management and how this, you know, it's more than just the physical, I mean the dance steps that you put together.
It's also about how you interact with all of these different personalities, you know. So, we were working with Frank for a while and there were a couple of videos that Frank couldn't do, and he would say, you know, you guys go ahead and do it, and that was kind of our segue into doing it for ourselves.
And the first big video was Usher, ‘You Make Me Wanna,’ that was the segue into that. And then after that music video came out, it was crazy. It was like music video after music video.
And then we started meeting different directors and Billy Woodruff, great friend of mine now, but in the beginning, he was a big video director and he just used us a lot. Like, you know, for every video he was doing, we were choreographing. And it just became a thing in the Nineties and the early Two thousands. And that was what laid the groundwork for me learning how to choreograph a camera and then eventually going into television and film.
[00:09:42] Jason Rudman: I feel like that's preparedness meets opportunity, right? And maybe, I mean, some people say, and a little dose of luck, but you gotta be in the right place.
[00:09:51] Jamal Sims: Absolutely.
[00:09:52] Jason Rudman: Yeah, we should also say, because you were laughing, there was a detour at some point in between that space where you were actually part of a boy band. I couldn't resist. Come on. I couldn't resist.
[00:10:03] Jamal Sims: I thought we were talking about dance?
[00:10:04] Jason Rudman: Yeah, we're gonna do that as an aside and if people want to…
[00:10:08] Jamal Sims: No, no, no, no, no, no. It's a huge part of my journey. So, what happened was, when I was in high school, there was a show called Putting On The Hit and you would go on this show and lip sync your favorite group or band or artist.
And so I put together – I grabbed my brother and my cousin and my best friend across the street and another friend of ours – and we went on the show. We auditioned here in LA and we got on this show. We lip synced to one of the songs for a New Edition and we won all the way to the grand finals.
And after it was over, I felt like…I was like ninth grade…and I was like, my career is over. Like what do we do?
And my Dad was like, well I bet you if you guys went outside and learned them songs, y'all could do exactly what they're doing. And that's kind of what happened. We did it. We went out in the backyard, started trying to learn how to sing ourselves and ended up doing a live talent show in Los Angeles and getting a record deal with Capital Records first. And then, that ended up being another label, and eventually came out with an album.
[00:11:10] Jason Rudman: There's an album out there. There is an album out there.
[00:11:13] Jamal Sims: There is.
[00:11:14] Jason Rudman: Are you gonna tell everybody how to find it or are we gonna save that?
[00:11:19] Jamal Sims: You know what? It's so funny. I'm really proud of the album because actually it speaks to just determination like, you know and having the drive to do something. The group was called Fresh Attraction, like the New Edition, but The Fresh Attraction, that was the group's name first, and then for the album, it ended up turning out to be Sons of Soul. And yeah, that's the self-titled album. That's what's called Sons of Song.
[00:11:41] Jason Rudman: I love that. To your point, it is a tangible representation of resilience and putting your heart into something.
And I also want to pin that you started your career lip syncing and, to your point, sometimes you manifest things and you don't know where they're gonna lead…and then we're gonna get to RuPaul's Drag Race and a lot of other stuff in a minute, but again, I'm picking up on connection.
[00:12:04] Jamal Sims: I love it.
[00:12:04] Jason Rudman: So I think, in the era you were in, R&B, soul all of that, right? I think back to I moved to the states in 1993. I was in my element in terms of the explosion of hip hop and R&B and just being immersed in all of that and like everybody wanted to be part of that experience and for anybody listening who wasn't born around that time, check your history by the way, look up Frank Gatson and Billy Woodruff. 'cause their legacy is significant.
[00:12:33] Jamal Sims: Right.
[00:12:34] Jason Rudman: How do you move then from choreographing videos to film? Is that just, hey, I've got this calling card, I've got this Rolodex, people see me in, because it's a very different medium on some level, right?
Video, three or four minutes and then film fundamentally different, I assume, in terms of what's expected of you and what you have to deliver.
[00:12:55] Jamal Sims: That's right. Yeah. You know, what I found [with] choreographing music videos is that, it was just dance steps. It didn't feel like there was a story attached to the movement. And what I realized early on is that I love telling stories through dance. And so, in music videos, you kind of lose that. In music videos, it's more about the flashiest moves or the coolest combination of steps that can go.
But as I got older and just falling more in love with storytelling, I realized that I should probably be in television and film, because when you choreograph something, they have to show it from the beginning to the end, the way it was choreographed because it's helping move the story forward. Music videos are a bunch of edits and you'd see this and that.
So, there was a movie called Step Up that was coming out and a friend of mine, Adam Shankman, who I danced for Ru[Paul]; I'm gonna take it back just because I'm gonna circle back with Ru a little bit.
Ru was my next job after Michael Jackson and I auditioned for his one woman show at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas and it was just Ru, me and Dante Henderson. It was three of us on stage for like an hour and a half and I was dancing and singing background for Ru.
So that was in ‘95, so this was before our group recorded the album and I went on tour. The funny part about the audition process was they didn't tell you who the artist was. They didn't say who you were going to audition for. It was a private audition. I thought it was Michael because I got called to do another Michael Jackson audition where there was private.
So, I was like, this is Michael again. I went and auditioned and then found out that it was Ru once I was down to like the last five of us. And so, when I got the job, I said, well, I have to go call my Dad just to make sure. I didn't know what my Dad was, how he was gonna feel about this, you know?
So, I called him and I said,
Hey Dad, I just got a job.
He said, “okay, great.”
And I said “it works in Vegas.”
“Oh, great.”
I said “it's for an artist named RuPaul.”
And he said, “okay, I don't know who this is.”
And I said, “well he's a drag queen”; then I paused and I was waiting for anything.
And he said, “okay.”
And I said “yeah, and you know, it happens in Vegas.”
And he said, “is he paying you?”
I said, “yeah.”
He said, “okay, I'll see you in Vegas.”
And when he said that there was this relief released.
[00:15:28] Jason Rudman: Alright, man, come on. Let's pull that thread. So you know, dancer, black community. You've obviously got a great relationship with your parents. You mentioned your Mom, you mentioned your Dad. What was the instinct to call him because of what he was going to think about you dancing with a six-foot something…
[00:15:50] Jamal Sims: Seven. Yeah.
[00:15:51] Jason Rudman: …talented. Yeah, six-seven in heels?
[00:15:55] Jamal Sims: Yeah.
[00:15:55] Jason Rudman: And I think the era as well, right? This is the Nineties, right? Just unpack that a little because again, you know, you're in dance this is not us being stereotypical, but guys in dance often get a refrain of you know, that's not what I thought my son was gonna do. I'm not suggesting that that's what your Dad was thinking, because clearly he was like, you done Michael Jackson, go for it, son. What instinct to call him? Was it simply because it was a six-foot-seven drag queen?
[00:16:20] Jamal Sims: No, no, it was more about me. It was because I was in a group with five of my, well it was, you know, my family and we were singing to girls and singing about girls. And now that I'm dancing, now I'm in this world where there are a lot of other people like me. And I started to be like, wow, this is a whole world that I had never been exposed to.
And so, for me, it was really exciting, but also I didn't know how my Dad was gonna feel about what I had to eventually – I was gonna have to tell him anyway. So this felt like a little tiptoe. Like, well, if he's okay with me dancing for Ru then maybe that might be him being okay with me being gay, you know?
And so that was the call. The call was, how do you really feel about this? You know? And when he said, I'll see you in Vegas. I was like, Ugh, I can breathe. And they came, not only did when we did the show, it was on my birthday and he came with all of my uncles and my aunts and, you know, my Mom and Dad, everybody came.
And we were on the stage [and] we were doing some crazy stuff on the stage. And after, Ru invited them all up to his suite because it was my birthday and had a cake for me. I looked over and I see my uncles taking pictures with Ru and I just felt like I think my life was gonna be okay.
Like, I remember at that moment, in this situation, they don't care. Like honest and it was the truth. Like nobody has ever said a side word. My Dad has never, my Mom and Dad have never made me feel any different. They love me whole for who I am.
[00:18:01] Jason Rudman: What a gift, right? Coming out stories or realizing in a world that was challenging, is challenging. I think back to the moment when, you know, I had to tell my parents, and I don't know about you, but the reaction from your Mom…you're looking for a different reaction than you are looking from the reaction from your Dad.
And just, if we could give your Dad a round of applause, we would just for him to be self-realized enough to say I've got a son, he's on a journey, and my job is to just support him on that journey and make sure that I lift him up in everything that he does. I mean, what a gift.
[00:18:39] Jamal Sims: It's a huge gift. And a gift from Ru as well, because I think he and George had just started dating when I got the job. And I had never seen a male relationship, you know two guys going to the mall, two guys going to the grocery store, and I got to witness it.
I'm a visual person. I saw Michael Jackson, this is what I wanna do. When I see Ru and George, that's what I want. You know? And so it was just, I don't know if Ru fully understands what he's done for me in my life. And it's not about the work. It's really just about being a fully realized person and somebody that's comfortable in their skin, you know.
And so now to be working with them years later is just.
[00:19:20] Jason Rudman: That's remarkable.
For everybody listening, we don't script this. So the fact that Jamal and I go down that path, that was not scripted. But I think it's just a beautiful moment, right? That, again, as people are listening and you share this there's just such power in that. To realize who you are, to be accepted for who you are, and then to be able to showcase a piece of you
I want to kind of get back, it's a piece of who you are and I'm sure it influences your work, but it's not the only thing that influences your work. You choreograph Step Up, Adam Shankman, Director Ann Fletcher, so that starts opening up other doors. What did you start to think through in terms of creatively, I want to now do this, I'm going to assume that certain things came your way, that you were like, ah, you know what, I'm not too sure that I actually wanna do that.
What were the types of things that you were aspiring to choreograph or through your art form, demonstrate, so the people could consume and say, oh my goodness, that inspires me – that’s a remarkable piece of work.
[00:20:17] Jamal Sims: You know what's funny, Jason? I'm thinking, I'm just realizing as I'm speaking to you for the first time you know, I was inspired when I was young by movies like Footloose, movies like Greece. And these are musicals.
I mean, Footloose, although they didn't break into song, they broke into dance. So, I have always been somebody that loved musicals and funny enough, once I did Step Up, in between Step Up and Step Up Two, I think we shot Hairspray, which was a musical.
It wasn't the Ricky Lake version, but it was a musical on Broadway first, and we used the music and, you know, so we did that in between. I was associate choreographer on Hairspray with Adam Shankman. And then I went and did Step Up Two, and then in between Step Up Two and Three, they asked me to do the remake of Footloose. And I'm like, what, this is a great opportunity for me. I love the movie. And I went and did that with Craig Brewer.
And then we came back, did Step Up Three. So in between the periods of the movie film being released and doing the next Step Up [film], I was able to do these films that I had already loved and I got to do my take on what they look like in 2010, 2011, whatever may be.
And it's funny that now, I mean from me moving on from Step Up to doing the live action of Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, all of these things that have already been done before and I get the opportunity to kind of redo it, you know, it's been interesting.
[00:21:50] Jason Rudman: It's great but just listening to you, I feel like your vision board, to your point, you're like, I see something. It's a little spooky. I'm gonna tell you, it's spooky.
[00:21:59] Jamal Sims: It is really Spooky.
[00:22:00] Jason Rudman: Your choice. So, pick one. You've talked Aladdin, Footloose, Hairspray, Beauty and the Beast. Within each of those, you mentioned I get the opportunity, I love the original form. I get the opportunity to put my stamp, my shape on it.
Would you just talk us through, what does that mean? When you go through the creative process and you think about breaking down the original, you want to stay true to the spirit of the original, right, because people want to be able to associate and recognize, but then it has the Jamal Sims stamp on it.
How do you break that down? What do you look for in a good story? And then how do you bring all of that to the fore? And then what would you say is the Jamal Sims like signature – when you see something from me, you gonna get this?
[00:22:47] Jamal Sims: Yeah. You know, I guess I mean, I could use any of them honestly, but I think, maybe Aladdin was probably the most difficult just because it never was a film first. It was an animated film, but it wasn't a live action film.
So, take what people knew of the animation and then put it on a person, on real people and how does that look, you know? And so, I always say, if I look at the big picture of it and the weight of what these types of movies, what they mean to people, if I look at it in its entirety, I think it could be daunting and it could be like, I don't want to do it. But I just go step by step. Literally, I'll do one number and we'll start to figure out how does Aladdin move?
And I think the worry for Aladdin is that he might feel corny, you know? But I would always say, but I'm not corny, so whatever I do is not going to be corny. You know what I mean? So, I gotta trust that Soul Train, Michael Jackson, people that I grew up and watching things that I've watched, I don't think that I have that thing in me. I have to use all of those references and the stuff that I love and put them into a character.
And so I think that my throughline is soul.
I think when I inject choreography, I think soul is something that you can't really teach. And so, my movement has soul in it, you know? And I think that people have responded to that because you could tell when somebody's kind of like just doing, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, you know? And then when somebody's like in it, in their field, you know, and then there's just like a groove and there's a pocket. Those are the things that I think I am known for.
[00:24:35] Jason Rudman: If you know and if you can feel soul, you know what people are talking about, right? It's just like, you know it when you see it.
So, Aladdin animated and then you have to translate that into choreography film. Again, another connection to you've done something and then it pays dividends later on because you choreograph the animated version of Encanto.
So, that's not people I don't think. No, Right. So what's that process like? And then we should let people know, because then I'm gonna say, what you did is at the Hollywood Bowl for Disney, you then did the live version of that, right? So that connection to Aladdin, where you had to do it, pays it forward, with Encanto, how do you choreograph an animated feature?
[00:25:18] Jamal Sims: Yeah. It's actually easier in terms of animation. It is almost like a clear board. And really what's funny about Encanto was that originally, I was like I don't think I'm the right person.
This is based off Colombian culture and I'm not Colombian and so what I did is I got an associate choreographer, Kai Martinez, to come with me to make sure that we don't do any what do you call that…appropriation, you know what I mean? So make sure that culturally come correct and that it's represented in the right way. And so that was the first thing.
And then, they said we have this song called Bruno. We know where we want the character to start. We know where we want it to end, but we don't really know what happens in between all of this song. You know, during the song can you just go into a studio and come up with something?
So it's almost like free reign, just go create, which is so nice because for somebody who's creative, I could see the whole thing before we even walked into the studio. As we started choreographing it, it just started happening. The conversations were there, the storytelling was there, and the movement just started to happen.
And so, I think that I got in there on Tuesday. I had it filmed and ready to send to the producers on Thursday, and they called me Thursday night and everybody was like, this is exactly what we were looking for. We had no idea what we were looking for, but now did it, now we understand. And so it became a thing. Yeah.
[00:26:53] Jason Rudman: You put words in movement to an expression that they like. We don't quite know what it is, but when we see it, we're like, yeah, that's it.
[00:27:02] Jamal Sims: Yeah.
[00:27:03] Jason Rudman: So, did that make the translation to the work that you did with Disney at the Hollywood Bowl, did that make it easier? Because I'm assuming you didn't want to just do lather, rinse, repeat, and [it] wasn't a replica of what was in the animated version, I'm assuming.
[00:27:18] Jamal Sims: Yeah. No, because of the animation and a lot of the things that, you know, a lot of cuts and stuff like that, we have to make sure that it feels good for a live audience. So, there were embellishments and also staging that changes the choreography as well.
So, it's a lot different, but you keep the same things that people recognize. Those are the things that will be there. So it feels familiar. It doesn't feel like a total departure from the movie, but I always think it's like the movie on steroids, you know?
[00:27:50] Jason Rudman: Well, it's the Hollywood Bowl as well, so just the scale of it, right! Is that the biggest live event that you've done, not in terms of prestige, but just in terms of space?
[00:28:00] Jamal Sims: Yeah, as far as film, yes, but you know, I had done tours from Madonna to Miley [Cyrus] who filled stadiums and stuff like that. So, there's a live performances that we filmed before.
[00:28:10] Jason Rudman: So on scale, right? Moldy City Tours with Madonna and Miley Cyrus as an example.
[00:28:15] Jamal Sims: That's right. But those are artists, so it's a different type of show. But as far as this type of show, yes. The Hollywood Bowl, I did three shows there. I did Rent at the Hollywood Bowl. I did Encanto at the Hollywood Bowl and also Lion King, just recently last year at the Hollywood Bowl.
It's so magical. These are like performances that I'll never forget, because if you've been, and obviously you've been to the Hollywood Bowl, it's outdoors. You're out there under the sky. You're surrounded by people who love the story that you're about to tell and the first time seeing it live with actual live singers, singing and dancers out there. I mean, it's incredible. It's probably one of my favorite things. Period.
[00:28:55] Jason Rudman: Yeah. I was going to say that you're the Hollywood Bowl choreographer in residence, but, you know, maybe you pin that on your, you know, like anything that is Hollywood Bowl comes through you.
[00:29:05] Jamal Sims: I wish that was the truth.
[00:29:07] Jason Rudman: Well, you know, maybe we put it out there. Come on, put it out there.
You were recently involved in Grease, you connected some of your musical heritage and love of musicals that then fast forward and you get the opportunity to work on it. And then you also mentioned that you were disappointed, right? Because it burned brightly, and then it didn't. So for those of you [listening] Grease, Rise of the Pink Ladies on Paramount.
Talk through that process, right? Because again, series format. I know there's a lot that you're incredibly proud about and you've paid homage to the original film and the choreography there. But again, creative process, I'm assuming somewhat different. How is that different? And what did you learn through that creative process?
[00:29:46] Jamal Sims: Well, really what happened with Grease, Rise of the Pink Ladies was I was coming off a Netflix film – Thirteen. It was a musical on Netflix.
I finished it on in maybe July. In August, I get a call, Hey, they want to talk to you about doing Grease, Rise of the Pink Ladies prequel and it's television, so it's episodic.
And I was like, interesting. I already knew it was gonna be a lot of work, one. And then two, by the time I finished doing Thirteen, I had really felt like I need to be behind the camera. I need to be directing because I just enjoy the storytelling so much and I feel like I wanted to be able to tell it fully with my vision from beginning to end, you know. And sometimes, with choreography, all I could do is just insert myself in the musical numbers but if I could be the one that's in charge of the overall finished product. That's what I want to do.
And I had been wanting to direct for a while. I directed a documentary already. But documentary filmmaking is different than episodic or film, you know, or narrative. So, I had the interview with Annabel Oakes and Alethea Jones, who were the producers. Annabel wrote the story. So I told them that I wanted to choreograph, but I also wanted to direct. My agent told them this before I got on the phone and they said yes, we would love, you know, maybe on season two because we've already have our directors.
Now mind you, this is a hard thing to do because if you've never directed before, how do people know that you can actually do this and that these are millions of dollars per episode that they're spending to make these episodes.
And so, they're trusting you, that has never done it, I understand the concept, but you have to figure it out. You know, you have to find a way to break into this some way. So, I thought I would use the leverage of me choreographing. They said no. And so I said alright – and in my mind I was like, well, then maybe I don't wanna do it – and then I thought, this is my ego speaking because right now in my career, I'm feeling like I deserve a spot to direct.
Grease really means a lot to me. And so, I was like, I'm gonna go in as a director and not as a choreographer, which meant I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna choreograph these numbers, but I'm gonna shoot each number like I would have directed it on camera.
So, all of the angles that I shot when we did the pre-vis, when it was just in rehearsal, I would send it to everybody and people started getting familiar with the way I moved camera with the dance and all this kind of stuff. And I think they gained more confidence in what I can do as a director.
By episode six, we were filming and I was having the time of my life, mind you, because it is Grease, you know, and the music by Justin Tranter was amazing. The writing was crazy. Everything, all of the actors were amazing.
Episode six, one of the directors that was supposed to direct it fell out, and they asked me, they were like, can you do it? And I'm like, absolutely. So that was kind of like me going in with an intention and coming out with a great product and the outcome that I wanted.
[00:33:05] Jason Rudman: Manifesting again, brother, manifesting again. It's crazy. It's crazy.
It really is. It really is. I feel like I wanna spend 30 minutes just drinking coffee with you. I just need a little bit of that manifestation.
So what is it about the Grease story that pushes buttons for you?
[00:33:21] Jamal Sims: Yeah, it was my childhood. Grease was the movie that they released, and I was right at that particular age where we had a movie [theater] across the street from our apartment complex when I was growing up.
And my Mom, you know, on the weekends when Grease was in the theater… it was every weekend. I was going across the street to watch this movie, and I couldn't get enough. I had the album and Grease was sexy. It was raw. It had soul. Patricia Birch, the choreographer, although she was a white woman, I mean, those steps in the movie had soul in it.
And I can't remember where she's from, but I think either Detroit or New York, the woman had it and it was all in that movie. And I just loved it so much. So, to be able to do this also had the heart and the soul of the original. It was incredible.
[00:34:13] Jason Rudman: Perfect. You mentioned your directorial debut with a documentary, When The Beat Drops. So you know, doing a little bit of research right. Highly personal. It's about a dance style called bucking. But would you explain the personal element to it?
Not everybody wakes up and says, today is the day I'm going to film a documentary. What did that answer for you in terms of you, Jamal, and putting that on screen?
[00:34:38] Jamal Sims: Yeah. Well, this was right in my journey of wanting to direct something and because studios weren't running to me to direct anything. I felt like I had to create something that can possibly show the industry what I can do.
And so, because I hadn't written anything, I thought that about these guys that were in Atlanta that were doing this particular dance style that I had never seen in my life and they were battling each other similar to how breakers would battle each other in New York. And I was just like, why hasn't anybody seen this on film?
They would do it in the clubs and you know, it would be like one or two in the morning, and they would dance till four in the morning. And I'm like, if I ever get an opportunity, I want to do a story on them. I would love to come down and do interviews and just introduce the world to the genre of dance.
And I was shooting a music video here in LA and after we finished it, my producer Jordan Finnegan was like, what would you want to do if you could do, let's keep the ball rolling? Like, what would you want to do? And I'm like, I need to direct a movie and I would like to do a documentary about these guys. And I told him all about it. And so, he was like, let's do it.
And so [we] got a crew together, flew down to Atlanta, found some teams that would want to sit down with me and interview and I flew the crew down on my dime, put everybody in a hotel thinking that it was gonna be pretty easy. Like, these guys would want to be on TV, I'm sure it's gonna be fine. We got down there and nobody, none of these guys wanted to do it. They were like, we don't want to be made fun of…a lot of our families don't know that we're doing this in the club…a lot of our jobs could be at stake.
I had no idea. And so, they all show up together like a town hall. That's what it felt like. I didn't think they liked each other because the way they battle on the floor was, you know, felt like they had something against each other.
But they all came together at one point and met me at the dance studio and they were like, we're not really interested. We've had a bunch of people come to us and want to do TV shows and documentaries about us, but this is something that we love and we're passionate about. And that's when I understood what they were saying.
And my take was I'm not trying to exploit you guys. What I'm trying to do is, you know, I'm a gay black man myself [and] what I'm trying to do is let you tell the story before somebody else tells it for you, because a lot of times in the culture, people will take things and all of a sudden make it their own.
And before you know it, people recognize voguing with Madonna. You know what I mean? And yes, she put it on the map and she did it, but they were doing this in the club before Madonna had the song.
[00:37:15] Jason Rudman: Get outta my head. My man. We're old enough, right? We're old enough. I was going to connect bucking to the ballroom scene which connects to, on some level, RuPaul. Right? So, you're serving this up so well here. I promise for anybody listening, we did not script this at all, but bucking to ballroom to RuPaul.
Alright, so you know, because we've talked about this huge fan. I just think that's a revolution as well, right? Like this is what season seventeen, global franchises. You just became a judge on the Global All Stars version. And you mentioned, back in the earlier part of this conversation about the impact that Ru and George have had in terms of showing you a path to two men having a healthy relationship that, I mean, we're talking now what, 20, 30 years, right?
From a creative perspective, what has the Ru experience left an imprint on you with?
[00:38:17] Jamal Sims: Yeah, so much. I mean, I learn every time I'm around Ru. I feel like I'm learning something new, right, even down to Drag Race Live, which this Saturday will be our thousandth show. Ru and I directed the show together in Vegas, and I remember thinking that, you know, them coming to me and saying, we want to do a Vegas show – Drag Race Live; go figure it out, you know?
And so, I called Ru and I'm like, what are we going to do? He was like, I'm gonna come over to your house and we'll figure it out. And so, I'm pulling all of these images and, oh, we can do this and we can do this and this, this, this. And then Ru comes in and says, why are you reinventing what's already been done?
We just take the show and we put it on the stage and we don't have to do too much, you know? And it was so true. It was like, why, why? You know, I think, just as an artistic person, you just want to feel like you're doing something but Ru has always said, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. They're already there. Just go ahead and put it up.
And I think that that's what I've learned just about life in general is like, Ru sees it very simplistic and it doesn't have to be that hard. And sometimes we make things harder than they really need to be. And I like that. I really, really enjoy, I always have to remember that, you know.
[00:39:41] Jason Rudman: Yeah. So her note to you would be, Jamal baby, keep it simple.
[00:39:48] Jamal Sims: Calm down.
[00:39:49] Jason Rudman: Take it down an octave.
[00:39:51] Jamal Sims: Calm down. Exactly. I would say, what would…what, Ru say? And just, you know, if you notice, Ru's very loyal and he has the same people around him. All of us are still there, years later. And that's something that's so rare in this industry.
You know, I think people always feel like they need to change it up and we have to switch it up to compete with other shows. And that's never the case with Ru. If you were there with him in the beginning, you'll be there with him in the end. And I think that that speaks volumes to who he is as a person.
[00:40:23] Jason Rudman: Yeah. Loyalty is such a precious commodity, to your point. and I think we have this outside-in view of creative and Hollywood and television and all of that. And I think the power of loyalty is demonstrated in what you just explained and the relationships that you've built, right, which are built on loyalty and quality and showing up when you need to show up has. [It] is why you can envision something and then, six months later, you're doing it.
[00:40:52] Jamal Sims: Yes.
[00:40:52] Jason Rudman: So, the world is so different today though, right?
If I think about when you got started and we talked about this intersection of MTV starting again, like for anybody listening, there was a time when MTV didn't exist. Jamal and I are of that era, right?
I say to my kids all the time, there was a time when I didn't have an email address and they look at me like I'm crazy. They're like, what? I'm like, yeah, there's a time when I didn't have an email address. You actually had to write a letter or you had to put a quarter in a Nynex phone with the pager.
Bring it forward. So, if you were to advise somebody in their mid-to-late teens. They know that dancing is the thing. Choreography is what they want to do. What advice would you give somebody who was trying to get their start, thinking about their start in an environment that is different than I think where you came up?
[00:41:44] Jamal Sims: It really depends because if you're talking choreography or if you're talking dancer, because I think do think, although, you know, it's under the dance umbrella, being a choreographer is different than being a dancer.
You know, a dancer is I want you to train with as many people as you can, just so you're versatile in your in your styles and your abilities. As a choreographer, I want you to study what happens. I think because these kids right now, they just wanna jump on TikTok and they want to copy the new TikTok dance but I always tell the young kids, please study the choreographers of the past.
The Debbie Allen’s, you know, Bob Fosse’s. All of those people that inspire the world to dance, before you were here. I think that would add to your creative artistry because I think so many people on TikTok dance to dance to dance, but all pretty much kind of starts to look the same.
If you want to separate yourself, you should study the greats and that would be my biggest…and to be patient because everyone's journey here is different. Some people go from Michael Jackson, and that's your first job. Some people, it doesn't work out like that. Some people, you have to be in it for five years before you book your first job. So really you have to love it. If you don't love it, then you need to get out because it's hard. It's a lot of hours. The people aren't nice, you know?
So yeah, I just feel like being, I guess, passionate about what you do is gonna take you far. But you know, it's not gonna be easy.
[00:43:24] Jason Rudman: Can you talk about what's next? What's in the immediate pipeline? You're celebrating the thousandth Ru Paul Live, which is, I've seen it, it's remarkable, in Vegas. So, congratulations on a thousand. That is longevity.
[00:43:37] Jamal Sims: It is.
[00:43:39] Jason Rudman: Can you share with us what you're thinking about next, what's the next frontier that you want to challenge yourself to take on?
[00:43:45] Jamal Sims: Yes I do. I wanna do a Broadway show and so I'm just putting it out and this is manifestation right here. I've never done Broadway before. And it's funny, because I was going to do Into The Woods and it was the same time that Rise of the Pink Ladies was happening and I ended up just going with Rise of The Pink Ladies, and I'm glad I did. And maybe it wasn't the time for me to do Broadway.
And so, I hope this opportunity comes back around where I can go and bless the Broadway stage because I'm just itching to do that. Simultaneously, I'm reading scripts because I want to get my first feature film off the ground as well. And there's a couple of them that I'm really close to possibly directing. So that's where it's at right now.
I mean, I'll always choreograph, I'll always be able to be a part of Drag Race, which is amazing family to be a part of. And yeah, just enjoy being home. I remember so long I was like, I just wanna go on tour. I wanna be out on the road. I wanna go this, this. Now. I just look forward to coming home and just like chilling for a second.
[00:44:48] Jason Rudman: I love it. I love it. So, from Michael Jackson through Usher, to So You Think You Can Dance, the Academy Awards, which we should mention 82nd and 83rd TV credits on the Academy Awards, to Encanto, Beauty and the Beast, the Hollywood Bowl, Grease, RuPaul. I can keep going. The list of credits is endless.
Don't be embarrassed. It's remarkable. It's really, really inspiring. Nominated for Emmy Awards. I think anybody that will listen will truly, truly be inspired by your journey, and I just appreciate you taking the time to share a little bit of you with us.
[00:45:24] Jamal Sims: Jason, you already know. Say the word I'm there. This was so easy and you're just so easy to talk to and such a beautiful spirit. And like I said, I just appreciate people like you in this business and as a friend in general. You and Alvin are amazing.
[00:45:41] Jason Rudman: Right back at you. Appreciate you too as well, and it's all love. So thanks again for joining.
[00:45:46] Jamal Sims: Absolutely.
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